Are we pushing for our own suicide too much?

[Thatdude]

So I was just reading through Moonicide's post since I seen them here a number of times, and I honestly didn't know they went through with it until today. Anyways, one of their last post hit me.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/fly-me-to-the-moon-goodbye-my-love.29550/page-3#post-539128

"I haven't spoken to him in almost a week, because I know if I hear his voice I'll break down. I can't have him stop me. That is not going to happen. I love him dearly, but I am ready to let him go now..."

I don't know their exact situation, but something came to mind. I'm wondering if there is a too much of a push to complete the mission than finding out if we really want to anymore. Like the want of getting it done has been going on so much, that I think most in a split second would say yes. But give it an hour, and they might say no.
My point is, I think we need to start encouraging people to slow down and reevaluate this decision once in a while. Even more before the action. After all, life is temporary and death is permanent. I also think we need to start encouraging the recovery forum more. I think there is a good number that doesn't even know we have one.

Note I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying evaluate throughout this since you can't go back if you're successful. Use the recovery part if needed. But if you do end up doing it, then at least use the knowledge given to make sure you do it right and don't suffer anymore than you need to.

 

[faust]

I partly agree with you.
There are some people who commit suicide impulsively. And that is not good, because it always has to be a time gap for thinking what to do next.
But I see many people here who are suicidal for years.
They are thinking out their plans, doing a research. If people do not change their minds during several years, why should they stop at the very last moment?
And by the way suicide is not a game and not a mischief.
if it would be so easy to select a path of recovery, there would be much more threads there.
I don't think stopping for an hour will make a dramatic change in those who suffer very long time. But for minority it certainly might help. Especially for those who are not desperately determined to end their lives.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

I partly agree with you.
There are some people who commit suicide impulsively. And that is not good, because it always has to be a time gap for thinking what to do next.
But I see many people here who are suicidal for years.
They are thinking out their plans, doing a research. If people do not change their minds during several years, why should they stop at the very last moment?
And by the way suicide is not a game and not a mischief.
if it would be so easy to select a path of recovery, there would be much more threads there.
I don't think stopping for an hour will make a dramatic change in those who suffer very long time. But for minority it certainly might help. Especially for those who are not desperately determined to end their lives.

Well stated and fairly accurate.

I agree with both of you. I will add that we do try to foster support and encourage people not to make impulsive attempts. The recovery section could definitely use new resources and some love.

At the end of the day though this is a Pro Choice forum. We can provide support for whatever the user decides but we should never try to hoist our beliefs on anyone.

 

[Thatdude]

If people do not change their minds during several years, why should they stop at the very last moment?

It's more of the why. Like it might be the same reason why many don't retire when they need to and easily can. All they see is the mission.
Like most want to die due to a very exact reason. Bad life, bad health, or whatever. It should be asked if whatever the reason was is still there or has it changed. Otherwise the mission will be completed, but for no reason.
And I'm not talking about taking a month and sit on a mountain. It can be broken down to a simple if statement.

if (problem=true)
{ keep going}
else { is there another problem that would make the previous statement true? }

Meaning if no other problem will make the first statement true, then end the mission.

BTW I know it isn't a game, and that is my point. My thing of saying if they stopped for an hour, I agree that was off. But I hope my point will come across.

 

[Yoffi]

I think that finding this forum and actively reading and posting here is a dead giveaway that your suicide is not impulsive, especially seeing how you need to be kind of lucky to find this forum or to know exactly what you're looking for so while your good intentions are much appreciated, I'm afraid they're just sort of pointless.
but I wholeheartedly agree that recovery section should be made "more visible".
on another note, no one here is pushing anyone to suicide - it's very much against the rules

so, what's worse, holding someone against their will and denying them information or knowing that someone has committed suicide on impulse?

 

[charlie_z]

Thatdude, I understand your argument, and I agree with it, but with the caveat that if a person reports they are committed to CBT and has asked to no longer receive appeals to 'time' or 'reason,' that he or she be no longer receive such messages.

 

[faust]

It's more of the why. Like it might be the same reason why many don't retire when they need to and easily can. All they see is the mission.
Like most want to die due to a very exact reason. Bad life, bad health, or whatever. It should be asked if whatever the reason was is still there or has it changed. Otherwise the mission will be completed, but for no reason.
And I'm not talking about taking a month and sit on a mountain. It can be broken down to a simple if statement.

if (problem=true)
{ keep going}
else { is there another problem that would make the previous statement true? }

Meaning if no other problem will make the first statement true, then end the mission.

BTW I know it isn't a game, and that is my point. My thing of saying if they stopped for an hour, I agree that was off. But I hope my point will come across.

I would rephrase it a little bit:
while (desireToCTB==true){
reasonsToCTB++;
reasonsToLive--;
}
//or something like this
if(pain>=MAX_PAIN_TO_BEAR){
reasonsToCTB = problemsUnsolved+problemsDevastating)
}

 

[Thatdude]

on another note, no one here is pushing anyone to suicide - it's very much against the rules

so, what's worse, holding someone against their will and denying them information or knowing that someone has committed suicide on impulse?

No I don't mean hold info from the world. What I mean once in a while it might be worth asking why. I mean if they don't want to talk about it, then OK. But it might be worth it. Plus as you said the recovery forum needs to be a bit more visible or encouraged.
Then on top of that, asking why might allow someone to point out an easy fix in some cases.

As far as the info, I think that should be the same as it is now. It is better to give it because there is no real way to stop someone, and it's better that they have a peaceful ending than a hell of a life because they messed up.

I understand your argument, and I agree with it, but with the caveat that if a person reports they are committed to CBT and has asked to no longer receive appeals to 'time' or 'reason,' that he or she be no longer receive such messages.

I 100% agree. And I don't think anyone should be PM about this. But what gotten me to make the post is I'm seeing far more than not. No one is even asking why. I don't think in this 1 case it would've made any difference. But it might be worth it IF the person is OK with sharing such info. There might be something else that could happen. But the way I'm seeing things lately is someone ask how can I off myself by whatever method. Someone gives a list and what not, and they talk about getting the stuff. But all the focus is on ending the life and there is no mention on why and can we help.

With that being said, this community isn't bad at all. I'm just pointing out something that should be looked at.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Its THE final choice. That choice should be respected or we have no free will. However, due to its finality and seriousness, I personally believe that their choice should be proofed to exhaustion. If you post, then you want to be heard. Maybe people want support but don't know it. Maybe their story hasn't been told yet. Its always worth asking how it came to this and is there any other way. I'd rather see that than just blind acceptance of their fate.

I don't want to passively encourage anyone by wishing them good luck before they have told their story and reached out for support. IF and only IF all options are exhausted then it is more respectful and supportive to accept their choice. But at the end of the day, its the internet. People will do what they do for good or for bad. Each case is different and each forum user needs to make their own call on how to deal with it in the most respectful way possible. I have conflicted views on this myself and I have my own way of looking at it as we all do. I can't disagree with anyone else's view when my own is so unclear sometimes.

 

[squirtsoda]

Your life looking good on paper and objectively having many people that love and support you still is not enough to balance the equation of internal and permanent suffering in many of us. I couldn't put down on paper the battery acid flowing through my veins.

 

[SlackJim]

While I think personal choice comes above everything, I also think recovery is realistic for more people on here than would care to admit it to themselves. I have at times got so fixated on my own death, that I ignore anything that might suggest staying alive would be worthwhile, weather it's my own thoughts, other people, situations getting better...

 

[Deleted member 1465]

While I think personal choice comes above everything, I also think recovery is realistic for more people on here than would care to admit it to themselves. I have at times got so fixated on my own death, that I ignore anything that might suggest staying alive would be worthwhile, weather it's my own thoughts, other people, situations getting better...

That happens. Its easy for some to get fixated on suicide as a magical means of cutting through all the BS to end your problems without having to put in the effort to live. Of course, suicide comes with its own effort, but with ideation you can often hold it as a glowing golden escape route that you can take any time you want even though you probably never will. I suffer a little from that and I can see that as a problem for me.

 

[k75]

I don't think suicide should be impulsive, and sometimes it does feel like people push for it too much. But it's not my place to say they shouldn't feel that way. And it's not my place to say they shouldn't do it. However, I also believe if there's a chance of a solution, it should be explored. Sometimes, even if it doesn't feel like it, time might be a solution, but people get impatient and cannot wait.

I'm struggling with this exact issue in my own life. Things that brought me here are not temporary and I'm not willing to live with them, but I still keep trying stuff... I want to make it work. It's just so hard, because I don't want to give up too early and at the same time, I don't want the suffering that's waiting for me and that I already have. But I also don't want to be in such a panic that I'm blind to a way out that does not equal my own death.

Through it all, I'm at war with my own mind. I want to be better, but at the same time I'm pushing myself to die. I'm constantly bombarded with thoughts and urges of suicide. I can't control them, and to be honest, often I don't even want to anymore. Sometimes I quit important medications that I know are helping, so that I can see how horrible I really feel and get it over with. Then at the last second, I pull myself back out of the darkness.

More often than I'd like to admit, I find myself glossing over good things that happen and focus too much on all the bad stuff. I'm trying to recover, but at the same time, I'm here everyday obsessively researching and discussing and in the mindset that I am definitely going to kill myself very soon. I have everything I need for my method waiting for me in a little box on my dresser. But I also see my therapist once a week and take meds and report my urges to my best friend and ask for help. It's confusing, contradictory, and just makes no sense.

I don't know the answer, and I don't know what's right or wrong. I just wish it would all go away. I wish we could all find whatever peace we're hoping for.

 

[BasedGod]

I agree to this but I use it as a tool. For me most of my life is uneventful and just depressing and spikes of actually wanting to end it. I don't want to get too tired to kill myself and keep on living every day wishing I just actually did something about it when I was at my peak.

 

[Ghost2211]

People come here for support and acceptance not to be convinced not to die. I try to offer suggestions if people make an opening, and offer community. I would never tell someone they should or shouldn't die, or that they should stay the course. Support is picking up on their needs and cues and making them feel cared about and heard. There are people I've told to slow down, but that's only when they feel distressed and impulsive.

The point of this group is that it is pro choice and a place to be educated and supported.

 

[TAW122]

Your life looking good on paper and objectively having many people that love and support you still is not enough to balance the equation of internal and permanent suffering in many of us. I couldn't put down on paper the battery acid flowing through my veins.

Well said, and too many people in the world assume that if life is going well (on the outside, appearance) that it must be a 'good life'. It is easy to say that because they do not see the internal turmoil that the person is going through. For me, currently it is a lot of internal hell and also knowing that things are permanent for me (Aspergers, worsening anxiety and focus/concentration issues, disgust for how the world is and will continue to be, and many more). There is no other solution for me other than death. Even small moments of pleasure and joy are simply insufficient for me to keep going. As far as the battery acid analogy, yes I agree, because that's what most of us fear, we fear being stigmatized, judged, and worst yet, taken away against our will for simply 'expressing' wrongthink or even suicidal ideation. That is an additional reason that I don't wish to support nor live in a society that doesn't respect my choice to die on my own terms and with dignity. Sadly as a result of said society, we have to hide our intentions, go to great lengths (sometimes) to procure our method of choice, and then wait for the opening and hope that we succeed (including overriding SI to the point of success).

While I think personal choice comes above everything, I also think recovery is realistic for more people on here than would care to admit it to themselves. I have at times got so fixated on my own death, that I ignore anything that might suggest staying alive would be worthwhile, weather it's my own thoughts, other people, situations getting better...

Yes that is true and while I have recovered in the past, I've also come to terms about the larger picture and the long term results for myself. I've arrived at the conclusion that death is still better for me in the long term due to my existing circumstances (quite a few that are out of my control and have no real solution for). I can at least die knowing and claiming that "I gave life a shot (in fact, many shots), and at the end, death is still preferable than to live decades more of suffering."

People come here for support and acceptance not to be convinced not to die. I try to offer suggestions if people make an opening, and offer community. I would never tell someone they should or shouldn't die, or that they should stay the course. Support is picking up on their needs and cues and making them feel cared about and heard. There are people I've told to slow down, but that's only when they feel distressed and impulsive.

The point of this group is that it is pro choice and a place to be educated and supported.

Agreed, there is no where IRL nor other places on the Internet where I feel respected, accepted, and understood for my views on life and death. Also, yes what is unique about this forum is that it is pro-choice, meaning that it allows people to choose whether they wish to continue living and make the most out of it, or if they decide they had enough and just want to end it. Furthermore, the discussion of methods and also non-censorship of various topics about right-to-die, freedom of choice, and what not is liberating. There is simply no other place that is as open and free in terms of discussing such topics and methods.

 

[Jean4]

So I was just reading through Moonicide's post since I seen them here a number of times, and I honestly didn't know they went through with it until today. Anyways, one of their last post hit me.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/fly-me-to-the-moon-goodbye-my-love.29550/page-3#post-539128

"I haven't spoken to him in almost a week, because I know if I hear his voice I'll break down. I can't have him stop me. That is not going to happen. I love him dearly, but I am ready to let him go now..."

I don't know their exact situation, but something came to mind. I'm wondering if there is a too much of a push to complete the mission than finding out if we really want to anymore. Like the want of getting it done has been going on so much, that I think most in a split second would say yes. But give it an hour, and they might say no.
My point is, I think we need to start encouraging people to slow down and reevaluate this decision once in a while. Even more before the action. After all, life is temporary and death is permanent. I also think we need to start encouraging the recovery forum more. I think there is a good number that doesn't even know we have one.

Note I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying evaluate throughout this since you can't go back if you're successful. Use the recovery part if needed. But if you do end up doing it, then at least use the knowledge given to make sure you do it right and don't suffer anymore than you need to.

Absolutely not. I have many many people talking to me prior to CTB. I always tell them first they don't have to do it. I tell everybody the options. If they are ready they are ready.

Heck. I tried to talk Stan out of it. He thought about it for a split second and what our life together could have been like. He didn't change his mind. If a person is ready, they are ready.

Moon spoke with me many many times. She was ready.

 

[Flippy]

I'm really enjoying the psuedo coding examples in this thread. Mine would have a "throws exception..." So I guess my thought process needs a "try and catch" in there somewhere. I do think that thinking things through in a logical way can be helpful, though the reality is that humans aren't machines so all the logic in the world doesn't always lead to a logical conclusion. But I think people who have experience of coding are more inclined to think in this sort of way. At least that's been my experience. I watch Logiked on YouTube fairly regularly and he said something similar about his thought processes due to his experience coding.

 

[BooGirl]

Well, in the end, does it matter?

 

[BPD Barbie]

It's not for us to really question someone else's choice or the reasoning behind it. Unless it's given to us willingly, it's not our business. This is a pro choice forum. Do some people act impulsively? Sure. But it's still their choice even if it's the wrong one in our eyes. We are all of different opinions which is fine, but need to remember that it's OUR opinions and THEIR choice.

 

[ElMow]

I have reached a point where I don't WANT it to get better. There's a point of no return, for me, and I crossed it some time ago. I just want every sensation, good and bad, to stop.

 

[Livingvsdying25]

(I'm still reading rest of thread & on post #8 (Replying to @Thatdude wouldn't let me directly quote.
I have to kindly disagree with what you said about most people wanting to CTB due to "a very exact reason". That isn't true for me & I dare say it isnt true for most people as well.
Life is complicated. So is death & so are the reasons behind anyone continuing with either.

Even if it is just a very specific reason & it's something that "can change" doesn't mean that it will. Just because we can look outside of someone situation and see all the change that is possible that doesn't mean it really is.

In the sense that we are on the outside. We dont live that person's reality. We don't really know what is possible in their life bc we are not living it. I think it's easy to look at someone life and see all the potential and possibilities but, very easy to forget that we just aren't walking those shoes.

& everyone shoes work differently. Sometimes even if change is "possible" it can be very unlikely.

I think it's always important to be able to encourage someone & remind them of their potential & possibilities in life. Remind people that they have alot to live for etc.

But this is suppose to be pro choice and to me that means we do not get to decide for anyone else. We don't get to stand in & force our ideals of "good enough" reasons. The standard of living is different for everyone. I dont think anyone should be able to try & decide for someone whether or not their life is reaching their standard of living & satisfaction within that.

I hope I made sense & I apologize if I'm coming across harsh or anything.

I agree that people should be thinking about it seriously & throughly.

 

[goomsoom]

Its a pro-choice forum. Please don't change it.

Its not your decision to make, would you accept responsibility to take care of every person you stop, for the rest of their life?

There are enough sites/helplines for offering support which clearly doesn't work because they cannot actually solve any problem. All it does is make people suffer more by confusing them, some will get desperate use incorrect methods and their life will become worse if they survive.

You can talk people out of it for a day, week, month but they will come back again because you cannot solve their problem, you are only interested in seeing yourself as a hero and feel good about yourself, who saved someone from jumping. You are not a hero.

Most users here don't do it impulsively, you have to spend days researching about methods, getting supplies, overcome SI etc. You can tell people to properly think about their decision but don't force your opinion on them.

Edit: Sorry If I sound rude, pro-life people really makes me annoyed.

 

[Thatdude]

Its a pro-choice forum. Please don't change it.

I'm not sure why people are thinking I'm asking for it to not be. As I mentioned, information should be still given, but the best way I can compare this to is fixing car forums. Where someone talks about their problem getting their car fix, and people more than less give a grocery list with a how-to on it. I'm actually not saying this in itself should change. I'm saying on top of this, people should be asking why and seeing if the person wants to talk. Unlike a car, life is a mess. A why might get you a none of your business, a complicated answer, the person wants to because they want to, or maybe something you can help with.

Like lets put it this way. Say if XYZ person wants to CTB because they are autistic, and they see no way out of their parent's roof. Well, currently 99% of what I'm seeing it's simply "how can I _ myself". People give a grocery list, tell their opinion if it's painful or not, and might give options on other CTB methods. The person follows what is said, and I believe there is a high likely they could CTB with little to no pain, and that would be that. Maybe we get another goodbye thread, maybe not.
But in my opinion, there needs to be a little bit more push on simply asking why. If the person doesn't want to talk about it, then so be it. It is their own business after all. If the person wants to say they want to just because. Then again, it's their own business. But lets say they reply with a problem you most likely can help with. In this case I could even tell the person about real options that might help, and might make the entire point of them CTB pointless.

 

[squirtsoda]

Ugh

Not anymore, see how the more people and more mainstream, the more "toned down", because many who sign up here aren't really intending to do anything.
This will only get worse, this post just shows, where the trend is going. Prolifing recovery fake bullshit :)

It's not your place to decide whose support is fake. We're all people here and we're not strictly looking for an instruction manual for our chosen method. Who are you to judge "aren't really intending to do anything"? Thats awfully presumptuous. I would suggest you tone down the negativity and skepticism (the last of which will get you precisely nowhere here). I doubt you'll take my suggestion. I've been reading quite a few of your borderline harsh (unecessarily) around the site. Try to be a part of empathizing with others. Why else are you here? Just to perfect methods?

 

[goomsoom]

I'm not sure why people are thinking I'm asking for it to not be. As I mentioned, information should be still given, but the best way I can compare this to is fixing car forums. Where someone talks about their problem getting their car fix, and people more than less give a grocery list with a how-to on it. I'm actually not saying this in itself should change. I'm saying on top of this, people should be asking why and seeing if the person wants to talk. Unlike a car, life is a mess. A why might get you a none of your business, a complicated answer, the person wants to because they want to, or maybe something you can help with.

Like lets put it this way. Say if XYZ person wants to CTB because they are autistic, and they see no way out of their parent's roof. Well, currently 99% of what I'm seeing it's simply "how can I _ myself". People give a grocery list, tell their opinion if it's painful or not, and might give options on other CTB methods. The person follows what is said, and I believe there is a high likely they could CTB with little to no pain, and that would be that. Maybe we get another goodbye thread, maybe not.
But in my opinion, there needs to be a little bit more push on simply asking why. If the person doesn't want to talk about it, then so be it. It is their own business after all. If the person wants to say they want to just because. Then again, it's their own business. But lets say they reply with a problem you most likely can help with. In this case I could even tell the person about real options that might help, and might make the entire point of them CTB pointless.

You don't have the right to judge if someone's reason to do CTB is valid or not. It's none of your business if a person didn't asked for your help to make a decision for them.

Let everyone make their own decision. You don't even see how you want to force your opinion "help" on other people.

If you want to help people no one is stopping you but we don't need to make it a rule. Actually I have not seen anyone who doesn't tell people to think about their decision.

This is why I have a problem with pro-life they think they can think better for me. Suicide is not an irrational decision. In my previous post I explained most people don't do it impulsively.

P.S. You conveniently ignored the responsibility part.