Discussion any argument against this logic?

[sugarb]

Reasons for wanting it aside, my thought process for actually killing myself is simply "I won't have to deal with anything once I'm dead."

And for the life of me (literally, lol) I cannot think of a single thing that refutes that.

Ignoring the possibility of a negative afterlife (we all die eventually so if there's an inescapable one it doesn't matter + there's as much empirical evidence for posthumous punishment of committing suicide as there is posthumous punishment of eating chicken or literally anything else), it can be assumed that bad things (pain, hunger, fear, shame, etc) will be removed upon death.

So, unless I'm mistaken, the only logical nonreligious reason for continuing to live is simply wanting to.

And the reasoning behind that, I think, can be split into 1. Really enjoying life and/or FOMO on future enjoyment 2. Obligation and/or sense of duty

I don't have a FOMO on future enjoyment in life, I don't enjoy life that much, and I don't have any major obligation/sense of duty, so those don't apply.

I could possibly create a scenario where I enjoy life more / I feel more FOMO / I have a sense of duty to live (if I had a kid, for example, I don't think I could kill myself until they were an adult), but there's no real reason to do that when, as stated previously, none of it matters once you die.

and fundamentally I don't consider "no more possibility of good things happening" as truly comparable to "no more possibility of bad things happening"; for me at least, good things are really only so good but the amount of bad that can happen or is happening to me is comparatively larger (by a decent amount). A 10/10 day just doesn't make up for a 1/10 day in my experience. But I don't think I've ever had a day so good it would outweigh an average bad 3-4/10 day, so maybe I've just never had a 10/10 day

But anyway- is there any kind of argument against this? it's an extremely difficult/impossible thing to logic against in my mind but I was thinking maybe others could think of something. If there was a convincing argument I might consider not killing myself

 

[Nikki_Music]

As you stated, there is the possibility of a bad afterlife that consists of torture, which would definitely suck. Two other possibilities that I think would be bad would be a sort of afterlife where there is a chance or, even worse, I'm outright forced to watch my family and friends deal with the aftermath of my suicide. I don't want them to suffer over my death. There is also the possibility of reincarnation, which can go so many ways - either be brought into an amazing life or an objectively worse life, although the way I think of it, if I was reincarnated, I'd probably at least have a will to live. Either way though I agree it's better to just die.

 

[verdedefome]

There isn't really any logic here to argue against, it's just an unfounded statement. That being said I agree with the statement.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

I came to the same conclusion a while back and have yet to find any compelling arguments against it, despite making active efforts to try to poke holes in it. I even made a tier list of the arguments against suicide lol (that entire thread might be of interest to you). But to no avail; the logic is sound as far as I can tell.

 

[wren-briar]

If you're focused exclusively on successful suicides, I agree with your logic.

The one obvious downside are possible outcomes of suicide failures.

 

[TraumaEscapee:)]

The way I see it is like this. Whether people CTB or not, were all going to die one day so there is always the chance of a bad afterlife the same way there is always the chance of a good afterlife. People have CTB and ended up in heaven and come back to tell their stories. Sometimes people don't end up in hell either sometimes they end up in the black void which is where I went last time I was successful in CTB years ago (not going to discuss it so don't ask). It's completely up to you really. I've consistently experienced misery and trauma throughout my years of life I am diagnosed with c-ptsd and bpd why on earth would I believe or trust that my life suddenly by the grace of God would change and become better? I'm dieing on Saturday at 8pm. It won't look like a suicide at all. It will look like I died in my sleep or something else. Things will be hidden well and not in site possibly even found by accident years later. So things aren't ruined for others all packages of things will be discarded before use.

 

[-Link-]

There is "wanting to live," but there is also "not wanting to die."

Keyword: "die" -- as in the process of becoming "dead."

Once you're dead, nothing matters anymore. But in order to get there, you have to die. And in this I'm not just referring to what must be done to the physical body in order to make it happen. I'm talking all aspects of the entire process which includes the emotionality of ending one's own life and any possible residual or ricochet effects of this process.

For someone who wants to be dead and who doesn't see a reason to live... There is still the process of dying to be reconciled.

So, looking at a possible counter to, "I won't have to deal with anything once I'm dead," I might ask myself, "Am I truly ready to die?" This question could be answered now, or at a future time, or in some cases, people may not get their answer until the last possible moment.

 

[coffeebeany]

I agree with Bertrand Russell who said "I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive". I am not motivated or influenced by any thoughts of the afterlife because I personally do not think human beings are able to have any understanding of the complexity of life and death (or the simplicity of it). I am in pain and misery now and I want to end this. That's all. I am however sad and hesitant when I think of my friends and partner who I will inevitably hurt. To cope with it I try to to zoom out and put everything in perspective. Yes, they will go through a lot of pain and remember me. But in 100 years they will be gone too, and therefore all pain. This might seem hard and cold but it helps me cope.

 

[aipuweth]

I don't think so. They just call you selfish because you want to die without thinking about the people you'll leave behind. But I didn't ask for, and I'm not gonna ask permission to die! Anyway, you're right. If there's no hell, and I think there isn't, then life is so pointless and the death is the best (probably the only) solution.

 

[Unbolted0605]

I've been thinking about this a bit as well and, it seems to me that there is a kind of default obligation that's easy to miss, because I'm so used to the 'benefit' side of the equation that I take it for granted.

It takes an enormous amount of resources for a society (pick any size, from planetary down to one's immediate family) to raise a human from infancy to adulthood. Even assuming a person has worked their whole adult life and not taken any benefits at all, there's still the childhood food, clothing, healthcare, shelter, transport, education, and myriad other things which went into producing a person's body (and more valuably) mind, and soul.

All this from the moment of birth. It's really staggering to be honest. Especially considering that the default state of humans is usually some kind of scrabbling in the dirt trying not to die, or working hard labour from childhood upwards. Hunter-gathering can be idyllic comparatively, but I consider it relatively rare in human-hour terms, and it has its own challenges that I won't go into.

I didn't even mention common benefits, like market availability of goods, roads to drive on, the accumulation of culture and its artefacts. Every single word we use is a gift from our ancestors, each one was once a fresh thought, they're only made prosaic by repetition. The knowledge that allows us to appreciate the depth of history (ours and our planet's), the fractal infinity revealed by the search for fundamentals, the unfathomable expanse above our heads. The genius, the absolute genius, of so many humans who created things (any thing, music is what I have in mind, but pick anything) that boggle the mind and make the average person (me) look like a clumsy child. All this is here for the taking, in forms ranging from palatable to extremely dense and spicy, for anyone who is interested and able, to just pick up. It's amazing. I live in the same world as our first ancestors, but it's a different world too, just from the understanding that's available, not even going into material differences.

From this perspective, it's easier in my experience to be grateful for things. However, although from this perspective it's easier to SEE obligation, of course it's another thing to FEEL obligation. There's the issue that one didn't choose to be here. There's the issue that gentle slavery with benefits is still slavery. The form my education took was, in many cases, absolutely not suitable for me. I hate what school continues to be, essentially slave training for children, in many ways. But in other ways, not.

Freedom really is slavery in many ways. A banker is constrained by his or her job, social norms, and so on. A stereotypical homeless person has none of these concerns, typically. But the banker can buy anything they want, within reason; live where they want, educate their children, travel, retire early, free from the worries that lack of money produces. They aren't constrained by the weather, the action of hunger, the generosity or lack thereof of others. Even the legal system is not immune to the influence of money. So who is freer of the two? Maybe day-to-day, the homeless person is somewhat freer. But in the longer term, the banker, or even a shop clerk or person who works another normal job is really freer, I think.

There's a lot more that could be said about that but it was a digression.

I'm split, myself. There are reasons that I'd dearly love to continue living. There are reasons that I'm certain I must die, even in the best of circumstances. Sometimes they're the same reason. Even the sense of obligation can be too much - 'I can't make a proper return, best to end it now before more debt accrues'. I'm speaking for myself. I really don't know. I've tried to do the best I can but I don't know if I can carry on. I don't think I've really answered your question, but I wish you well.

 

[sugarb]

I came to the same conclusion a while back and have yet to find any compelling arguments against it, despite making active efforts to try to poke holes in it. I even made a tier list of the arguments against suicide lol (that entire thread might be of interest to you). But to no avail; the logic is sound as far as I can tell.

Well, glad I'm not entirely alone in my logic lol
I'll check it out ^^

I agree with Bertrand Russell who said "I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive". I am not motivated or influenced by any thoughts of the afterlife because I personally do not think human beings are able to have any understanding of the complexity of life and death (or the simplicity of it). I am in pain and misery now and I want to end this. That's all. I am however sad and hesitant when I think of my friends and partner who I will inevitably hurt. To cope with it I try to to zoom out and put everything in perspective. Yes, they will go through a lot of pain and remember me. But in 100 years they will be gone too, and therefore all pain. This might seem hard and cold but it helps me cope.

I'm similar in the coping department
it's more than a bit inhuman to think it but I know that though it'll hurt them they'll be alright in the end one way or another. Everyone gets to die, and with that, no more pain

There is "wanting to live," but there is also "not wanting to die."

Keyword: "die" -- as in the process of becoming "dead."

Once you're dead, nothing matters anymore. But in order to get there, you have to die. And in this I'm not just referring to what must be done to the physical body in order to make it happen. I'm talking all aspects of the entire process which includes the emotionality of ending one's own life and any possible residual or ricochet effects of this process.

For someone who wants to be dead and who doesn't see a reason to live... There is still the process of dying to be reconciled.

So, looking at a possible counter to, "I won't have to deal with anything once I'm dead," I might ask myself, "Am I truly ready to die?" This question could be answered now, or at a future time, or in some cases, people may not get their answer until the last possible moment.

Thank you, that's a good point

I think my rationale for the physical side at the moment is that death by intraoral shotgun on a hillside by myself is preferable to death by accident/disease/other common means, as it's pretty much instant and I'll be doing it where I want. As for the rest, I think I'm just ignoring/suppressing it

but if anything is going to stop me, I think it'll be, as you said, in the last moment. probably due to emotional stress and SI. I've never put a gun in my mouth before so who knows

If you're focused exclusively on successful suicides, I agree with your logic.

The one obvious downside are possible outcomes of suicide failures.

True. my logic there is how statistically effective/painless a well aligned shotgun blast to the head is (near certain lethality/ instant death), but I think if I had zero chance of getting a gun or a different fast non-agonizing very effective method I'd be less sure

I came to the same conclusion a while back and have yet to find any compelling arguments against it, despite making active efforts to try to poke holes in it. I even made a tier list of the arguments against suicide lol (that entire thread might be of interest to you). But to no avail; the logic is sound as far as I can tell.

Read the post, was interesting!

I wanted to ask though- what is the "altruistic argument" and the "argument from inevitability"? I'm assuming the latter is "we all die eventually so killing yourself just ends things a bit sooner than they would otherwise, thus it doesn't really matter"

My ranking for myself is probably this-

S- N/A
A- Inevitability (possibly S)
B- Physical Risk
C- Replaceability, Incapacity (Sickness), Experiential
D- Permanence, Incapacity (Ignorance), Inherent Value of Life
F- "you're too young", "it gets better"

anything relating to altruism is most likely C at best

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Read the post, was interesting!

I wanted to ask though- what is the "altruistic argument" and the "argument from inevitability"? I'm assuming the latter is "we all die eventually so killing yourself just ends things a bit sooner than they would otherwise, thus it doesn't really matter"

The "altruistic argument" says "don't kill yourself because it's going to cause others pain."

Exactly, the "argument from inevitability" centres around the fact that we're all going to die eventually anyway, and the human lifespan is a blink of an eye on the geologic scale of time, so why rush what is already coming? Why prematurely end it instead of just sticking around and seeing what happens?

My ranking for myself is probably this-

S- N/A
A- Inevitability (possibly S)
B- Physical Risk
C- Replaceability, Incapacity (Sickness), Experiential
D- Permanence, Incapacity (Ignorance), Inherent Value of Life
F- "you're too young", "it gets better"

anything relating to altruism is most likely C at best

Thanks for participating in the exercise lol, that's interesting that incapacity from ignorance is so low on your list.

 

[ChaiTea]

i'm gonna start by saying that i'm bad with my words, so i don't mean to be argumentative or difficult lol.

i don't see any logical argument against that, but i also don't see any logic in that argument. "i won't have to deal with anything when im dead" is technically true sure (aside from the beliefs of an afterlife or whatnot), but the nature of that phrase is a little narrow minded. in the grand scheme of things, maybe it'll matter, maybe it won't. there's no rock solid way of proving either side.

sometimes i like to believe that if you wish to find a meaning in anything, you have to go against it to feel it. i think that contrasting feelings is the most fulfilling thing you can ever experience.

that's just me though. again i'm bad with my words, i don't mean to push you to one side or the other

 

[sugarb]

The "altruistic argument" says "don't kill yourself because it's going to cause others pain."

Exactly, the "argument from inevitability" centres around the fact that we're all going to die eventually anyway, and the human lifespan is a blink of an eye on the geologic scale of time, so why rush what is already coming? Why prematurely end it instead of just sticking around and seeing what happens?


Thanks for participating in the exercise lol, that's interesting that incapacity from ignorance is so low on your list.

Ahh, ok. I'd put that in C or maybe B then. the thought of causing others pain causes plenty of emotional pain / internal turmoil for me but has little actual effect on my decision making. I'm empathic but ultimately selfish ig

No problemo ^_^ i enjoyed
I think that incapacity from ignorance when separated from incapacity from illness (ie all disabilities and things that reduce mental functioning) boils down to A. "they're too ignorant to make this decision! They don't have diagnosed mental issues they're just uhhhhh stupid idk" and B. minors. B doesn't apply to me and A is potentially vague enough to be used for anyone. thus my low placing of it

 

[astr4]

I don't have a FOMO on future enjoyment in life, I don't enjoy life that much

I think creating obligations for yourself is just another way to make yourself suffer. Then you'd have to stick around for xyz reason and it would feel even more painful, as opposed to authentically choosing to stick around for yourself.

The thing with suicide is the finality of it all. Speaking for myself, I can say I don't have FOMO and I don't think I'd even enjoy life despite circumstances being "better," but I can't really say with all my heart I know for sure. I can only guess. In that regard it's a little like a lottery ticket. A small but perhaps futile hope.

What parts of your life do you think would make you want to live, if you changed them?

 

[sugarb]

What parts of your life do you think would make you want to live, if you changed them?

If I could bring the grander ideas in my head into reality in such a way that pleases me personally and/or is well received by others

like, if I started making a webcomic or something and it became an internet micro-sensation, or more importantly I was passionate about it and wanted to finish it, I would not commit suicide until I was satisfied with my work. I might lose interest or give up on it and then kill myself, but if I or a lot of people really wanted me to complete it I'd put it off

At the moment I'm trying to make a sort of choose your own adventure game. I'm not a programmer or an artist so it's just text on a screen and I'm using a prebuilt engine to make it, but the writing's all mine. It's not one of the grand ideas in my head or an incredible piece of art but for the time being I want to complete it enough that I'd potentially put off killing myself, though I also don't have my method of choice available so it's not like that's really an option for a while lol