Discussion Antinatalism

[Kfoe!12]

Also known as anti-nihilism, the belief that no one's life is enjoyable and we would all rather be dead.
I see a lot of antinatalism in this forum and I really don't see the appeal of it. Let us say birth as an example, why shouldn't we be allowed to give birth when their lives might be enjoyable, like most peoples lives. We can't really see if they would have epigenetic depression, but most people develop depression and might enjoy their life up to where things go downhill if it even goes downhill at all. Sure, life might not be a gift you want but there are plenty of people who enjoy their gift, even for you, life has maybe once or twice seemed like a gift, so it's only a currently unwanted gift. Doesn't mean you don't have the right to kill yourself but life itself isn't objectively a negative thing.

Thoughts? I would love to hear a discussion about this kind of stuff and don't be too serious about it, I'm just curious.

 

[Life sucks]

Simply put, better not to gamble with new life.

There are many bad and negatives in life not to mention how some things are inherently bad (like competition between each other). Logically one can view how life can be negative, and not only procreation but one's life can be ended to avoid negativity. Procreation is a part of life, if one follows logic, he'll not see the point but if one follows religion or some kind of similar thoughts, they'll continue living and procreation.
Suicide and antinatalism are on the same side because both are taboos for people. Suicidals also should be the most ones understanding to this concept and Vice-versa. And the opposite is related, pro-life and natalism, If you want to create new life then why you don't quit being suicidal and continue living and bring more lives? Why not keep more people alive so they procreate and bring more lives?


Nature is harsh and full of suffering and the constant needs creates suffering. It is like one is forced to move by suffering. You want to eat so you don't feel hungry for example.

Long story short, life is madness and bringing new life is very risky. Maybe other people will procreate but I'll never bring anyone to this and this suffering. A life that made us reach this state, a life that is full of pain and suffering. Some people might get lucky but what about others who are poor, who get killed or tortured or are helpless.

The risks are endless. If anyone want to procreate then go ahead but don't force others based on a religious propaganda or something.


I'm not enforcing anyone on antinatalism but I'm not accepting enforcing natalism and lies on others. And despite how much I hate natalism, I'm with freedom of choice

 

[Tiburcio]

life itself isn't objectively a negative thing.

Life can be good in some cases but here people suffered a lot and it's hard being objetive with life when you are so demolished. In my case, life of everyone I knew was bad and unworthy and this can make me support this antinatalism because life as I know it is awful. There can be the oppisite situation, the person with a good life. They won't agree with it.

 

[CatLover]

I'm an anti-natalist. Ask most people if they believe life is good and they will say yes, of course (and probably look at you strangely for asking). I think this is because most people have an 'optimism bias' - they basically assume that life is good because they are alive and therefore can't look at and evaluate it from outside itself.

I have a chronic pain condition. Lots of people do, and are also currently struggling thanks to the 'opioid epidemic' to access effective pain relief. That's one thing that makes life horrible, and an awful lot of other people are also going through it. Being in pain all the time is horrible. Even when I do have pain relief, it only really takes the edge off, I still can't lead a normal life or do many of the things I used to enjoy (for example travelling, hiking, even photography is almost impossible now, as you need to move around a lot, kneel down, stand very still etc to take good pictures).

I know other people who suffer from crippling depression or other mental illnesses. Depression can literally take all the colour and joy out of life. I think 1 in 3 people will have it. Not everybody will have it severely or acutely, but some will.

There are all kinds of nasty illnesses and genetic disorders and other things that can happen to you. Imagine being paralysed? Or being 'locked in'? Having to endure torture? Being sexually abused as a child? There are seriously so many, many awful things that can happen. And that's not even mentioning the obvious - that nothing much terrible can happen and you can still be utterly miserable. Suffering seems to be the only guarantee in life. No thanks.

And anyway, what is so great about life? It's constant needs that need to be dealt with. I'm either hungry or thirsty or I need to pee or poop or sleep. In the winter I hate the cold and in the summer I hate the heat. Humans are basically portable sewage factories, taking in nutrients and constantly making it into faeces. If I'm not physically in pain or having some need that has to be addressed, I'm probably bored or sad or lonely. There's not a big percentage of time that I feel even 'okay', not like I need to do something like pee or unhappy in some way. Most of the time it's pretty miserable, in my opinion.

Eventually the universe will cease to exist and everything we've ever been or done will be gone forever, as if we never existed. Therefore, everything is ultimately completely pointless to me. I would have preferred not to have been brought into this awful place, full of war and rape and poverty and cruelty and not have existed at all. Since I will one day not exist again anyway, whether I want to die or not, I won't have a choice anyway. So if that's the way it is going to end, I'd just rather have not have to bother with any of it.

I don't know if any of this helps explain AN to anyone who is wondering what it is or whatever. There are probably much better things to read as an introduction. Just my personal views.

 

[Fylobatica]

Almost 8 billion people all aboard this planet, most of them suffering and living a life that doesn't give that much reward if compared to the amount of energy and passion spent; yet people choose to give birth to thousands of newborns a day.

What about stopping reproducing and starting to take care of who's already there?

I also think that the universe would be way better off without us, and that all of our efforts are in vain, but that's a whole another topic

 

[Caerula]

Maybe different environments make people see the world differently. For example, a happy person with happy friends and family might believe most people have happy lives. A depressed person with depressed friends and family might believe most people do not have happy lives.

I do believe lower income such as mine contributes to factors that lead to worse lives. Therefore I have good reasons to believe if I have children, they will not enjoy their lives as much as I would like them to. I personally believe I should never have children.

 

[Kogoruhn]

Well, I believe the world is slowly getting better for everyone. The advances in science and technology are making all people's lifes more enjoyable and less of a burden. The changes we made in the last 50 years are amazing. Poverty is decreasing globally, as well as birth rates.

 

[Caerula]

Well, I believe the world is slowly getting better for everyone. The advances in science and technology are making all people's lifes more enjoyable and less of a burden. The changes we made in the last 50 years are amazing. Poverty is decreasing globally, as well as birth rates.

It is interesting that you seem to say that decreasing birth rate is good. May I ask why do you think it is good.

I personally think decreasing birth rate can be both good and bad. For example, it can mean people are more educated about birth control which is a good thing. It can also mean people have pessimistic outlook and therefore avoid/delay having children.

 

[Kogoruhn]

It is interesting that you seem to say that decreasing birth rate is good. May I ask why do you think it is good.

I personally think decreasing birth rate can be both good and bad. For example, it can mean people are more educated about birth control which is a good thing. It can also mean people have pessimistic outlook and therefore avoid/delay having children.

For me it's a good thing because it means more resources for everyone. If birth rates remain high i dont want to think what could happen in an overpopulation scenery.
I made that comment specially for those countries with high density of population, like India and some african countries

 

[Caerula]

For me it's a good thing because it means more resources for everyone. If birth rates remain high i dont want to think what could happen in an overpopulation scenery.
I made that comment specially for those countries with high density of population, like India and some african countries

That makes lots of sense, thank you!

 

[Nate]

I'm only against having kids because I know I'm emotionally damaged to the point where I don't think I would be a good father. I would consider adopting, but that would mean I'd have to have a stable career and life. And to get to that point and be able to get a mindset that lets me at least enjoy life a little enough to keep these things going for me, well I just don't think that will happen. So I will not push my depression and emotional trauma onto my sons and daughters. I already love them too much, even though I haven't had them, and never will.

I have thought of life as a gift at multiple times in my life though. Life can be a slippery slope, and I wish good luck to all the new players in this game.

 

[Michel Angelo]

Also known as anti-nihilism, the belief that no one's life is enjoyable and we would all rather be dead.
I see a lot of antinatalism in this forum and I really don't see the appeal of it. Let us say birth as an example, why shouldn't we be allowed to give birth when their lives might be enjoyable, like most peoples lives. We can't really see if they would have epigenetic depression, but most people develop depression and might enjoy their life up to where things go downhill if it even goes downhill at all. Sure, life might not be a gift you want but there are plenty of people who enjoy their gift, even for you, life has maybe once or twice seemed like a gift, so it's only a currently unwanted gift. Doesn't mean you don't have the right to kill yourself but life itself isn't objectively a negative thing.

Thoughts? I would love to hear a discussion about this kind of stuff and don't be too serious about it, I'm just curious.

You don't know what you are talking about - antinatalism is known as anti-nihilism? Bullshit. Do you know what either means?

"life isn't objectively a negative thing" - prove this and you can teach epistemology at my school.....

Conversation is fine, but please read up on terms, otherwise there's no baseline to begin with. You have no idea what you are talking about -

 

[longingforrelease]

You don't know what you are talking about - antinatalism is known as anti-nihilism? Bullshit. Do you know what either means?

"life isn't objectively a negative thing" - prove this and you can teach epistemology at my school.....

Conversation is fine, but please read up on terms, otherwise there's no baseline to begin with. You have no idea what you are talking about -

damn, that was a bit harsh, don't you think? Why the anger? If Mad made some claims with which you disagree or used some terms incorrectly, might you think about countering those claims in a civil way that contributes both to the thread and perhaps to Mad's improved understanding of the complex ideas and emotions she's wrestling with? Just a thought.

 

[BlackDragonof1989]

Yeah antinatalism is good but I don't judge parents awuhrr <3 *hugs everyone warmly* <3 Having kids can be good too I think I don't know when I read like near death experiences sometimes I think we ask to be born but then I think of the ones that suffer and die horribly as children and it makes no sense to me and same with the people who go through with suicide I just don't understand all the suffering it's sad <3

 

[worldexploder]

I have been an antinatalist for a long time. I personally believe it's ethnicaly wrong to create life. With life comes suffering,

 

[fuckthis]

"Might" be enjoyable. Most lives aren't really enjoyable, unless you don't mind slaving away at a 9 - 5. Maybe it's just me, but unless you completely disassociate yourself from all the bullshit, most lives are mundane. My High School head teacher even said this in an assembly. We're essentially just building ourselves up to live the same way everyone else does, and we don't really have any choice but to comply unless we're dependant enough for self-employment. I wouldn't want to bring a child into this world just so they can live the same, shitty life. The world is also overpopulated, and we're all destroying this planet anyways. Society is stupid. People only care about themselves. Oh and on a personal level, my genes are not so good.

 

[Trashcan]

I plan to ctb soon. But even if I don't ever ctb and live to old age, I refuse to pass on my genes. There are so many mental disorders that run in my family.

 

[Letting Go]

As someone well into his 30s, I have given the subject of antinatalism serious thought in recent years. I concluded that I wouldn't even think about bringing anyone into this hellish world unless the following conditions were met:

1.) I had the ability to select which physical features my offspring would and wouldn't inherit. No child deserves to be endlessly tormented because he inherited deformities that were the result of a genetic diceroll.

2.) I could guarantee that my offspring would be able to live self-sufficiently later in life. For example, I could teach them how to live off the land so they wouldn't have to rely on soul-crushing wageslavery in order to survive.

So yeah... the odds of me ever having children are practically nil, even if I were attractive enough to find someone to reproduce with.

 

[sadsoul]

I would say I'm an anti-natalist. I could never ever justify bringing a sentient being into this world because I know that it will suffer so so much and this is absolutely unacceptable. It would break my heart :( So as an act of deep compassion, I will refrain from having children. And even if society were less cruel I wouldn't want to have children since life itself is pretty cruel and there's always going to be pain.
And I also don't want to have children because I'd be a shitty dad since I can't even handle my own life. It would be too big of a responsibility for me and I'd probably fuck it up.
Oh and another reason why I won't have children is because I'm a loner and will never have a girlfriend lol.

 

[sadak_the_wanderer]

If I had a chance to vote, now, on whether or not I ought to have lived at all, I would vote against my existence. Sadly, other people have made the choice of existence for me. Perhaps they were well-meaning, but that does not negate my suffering.

The point of anti-natalism is to make prospective parents aware that they are gambling with someone else's pain, someone they ought to (at least in theory) love. My chronic condition, the one that shortens my life, is heritable. I care for my hypothetical children enough not to roll the dice on their behalf. It's too late for the philosophy to help me, as I already exist, but I have enough altruism left to consider lives to be. Wailing as an infant, tears as a child, the desperate scrabble of adulthood, an that the tilting slope of old age before we fall off the edge, it is all so avoidable if parents would consider more than just the thrills of having a baby, a room to decorate, a child to name after a relative, and their "legacy."

 

[TAW122]

My view is that we should fix the world we currently have if we even consider bringing new lives into this world. Personally, I don't plan on having children or bringing anyone new into this already fucked up, corrupted, unjust world. However, for others, I don't want to say that they shouldn't have any say in having children, but they should strongly consider the ramifications of having the child such as the environment the child will be raised in, the status of the world as it is currently (and the future), and of course, if they bring a child into the world they must know that the child didn't choose to be born, but was a result of the parents' deciding to have sex with each other. Therefore, the child should have the right to choose when to go.

 

[About_to_Go]

 

[worldexploder]

This video is brilliant!

Altruistic natalism doesn't exist therefore it must be a selfish act. No other way someone can make a counterargument in my opinion.