Venting "an unmoderated echo chamber of depressed people is the worst thing a depressed person could fall into"

[Saturn_]

Everyone and their grandmother has their own opinions on the Tantacrul video and I'm not here to get into that. But this top comment from the video perplexes me, to say the very least, and I'd like to discuss it. I haven't slept and I know this will probably come across as a very biased and nonsensical rant but I really need to get this out of my system.

Isn't it so funny how people with severe mental illness are repeatedly exiled from public spaces? Not directly, but the subject of their disorders are censored on every big website. Suicide becomes replaced by arbitrary euphemisms. You are discouraged from talking about it with full force. We must soften the blow for our neurotypical, healthy-minded brethren. "Sewerslide". "Unalive". "Self-delete". You still risk demonetization and account termination regardless of these preventative measures, for even daring to gesture towards suicide or adjacent topics at all. The message is clear: stop talking about it.

And it isn't only huge corporations who nudge you in this direction to suck up to advertisers. On social media, it is now popular to frown upon "trauma dumping". Do not talk about your problems, it triggers us. It's draining our energy. Go get help. Go talk to someone who cares. In real life, your worries are often too heavy for the common man. Let's stop talking about it. Let's go back to talking about the weather. That's easier for us. Not much relief to be found from both worlds. On most established, modern-day Internet communities, there are rules and guidelines in place for not venting about such heavy subject matter, for not talking about suicide. "Seek help and talk to a professional. Call the three-digit number."

So you call the three digit number. You talk to a therapist. You speak honestly to them about your suicidal ideations. After all, these are the people you should be honest to, right?
Police and paramedics swarm to your door. You are interrogated as if you're the prime suspect of a headline-breaking drug dealing scandal. Maybe you're unfortunate enough for it to happen around family. You are handcuffed and dragged into a cop car or ambulance, to be forced into a mental hospital. They put you on medications, regardless of your feedback, regardless of whether or not you think it helps. You act up and they inject you, sedate you, treat you with all the grace of a rabid animal. Maybe you're me. Maybe you get prescribed anti-psychotics for an autistic meltdown on the first day of middle school. Maybe you are told that your self harm is an attention seeking behavior, as other people are killing themselves, and that you are disgusting for this because "other people have it worse".

You have been given a message over and over by society that your problems, and you by extension, are not suited to be around healthy people. You don't fit in, you aren't the same. You are shunned from social groups and job opportunities. No healthy person could ever bear to deal with you. No healthy person wants you. Your illness is repulsive. You ought only to be a receptacle of pain and suffering, and any traces of light should never be allowed near you. You are "damaged goods". Rid yourself from the eyes of the public.

So you do just that. You decide to try and find likeminded people to vent to. People who have had nearly the exact same experiences as you. People who have been similarly exiled from a normal life. And you find yourself finally being listened to, finally being able to speak without restriction or guilt tripping or censorship. Perhaps you and the rest of these new faces don't see eye to eye on everything. But it's the only place where you feel that you've ever been offered warmth, after years of spiraling and hurting.

But this is an echo chamber. Because you are talking to other people who have similarly been utterly failed by the system, you are participating in an echo chamber. The mentally ill can't have healthy people to talk to. And according to you, they shouldn't have each other either. Are you to insinuate that because of lifelong depression and abuse, I can only be a danger to other people now? Because I am hurt and haven't been able to heal? The connotations of such a comment and other things I hear being said about the mentally ill, just ANYWHERE, are very sinister in my mind. People with depression are simultaneously talked about as if they are a burden, beyond saving, worth avoiding, and a source of mutually-assured, perpetual misery. As if they don't deserve relationships, companionship, or even a platform to speak their minds, unless they Get Help. But what do you do when you have over a decade's history of medical trauma and treatment-resistant mental health issues? What do you want me to do then? Do you want me to completely sever myself from society? Will that make you happy? If I can only be a source of poison to people like you? What do you want? Why can't I even do so little as to talk? Why can't I have a voice? Why? Why? Why?

 

[Pluto]

First thing to say is that that commenter is (probably unwittingly) the most heinous of hypocrites.

Last year, someone proposed a thread to ask people how they found SaSu. I requested that they include a poll because it would give us data. And sure enough, those polls gave us firm proof that the YouTube video had sent thousands upon thousands (plus likely tens of thousands more who do use the forum without signing up) of young people here.

Many of these are exactly the sort that the commenter is referring to. Young and inexperienced people going through a rough patch or suffering from loneliness. And there is conclusive proof that this Tantacrul scumbag has largely created this problem via the Streisand Effect, then claimed to be a hero who is solving it. Sounds like a dastardly scam to me.

If ever there was a video in the history of mankind that deserves to be demonetised (not to mention the scumbag being sued and/or sent to jail by the families of the young people he will have sent to their deaths so he can have his petty payback for getting banned from the forum) this is it. This has truly been a dark chapter, and the fact that the scumbag got a lot of money out of it is a new level of injustice.

That issue aside, I can confirm I've been directly threatened by mental health professionals not to mention self-harm because they would be required by law to alert the authorities. I also know not to mention it casually to others because it's unlikely that anything constructive would come of it.

Very slowly, certain regions of the globe are opening up to the complex but important debate around assisted suicide, but most parts are still in the dark ages. I'm very confident that this will change as more governments follow the initiative of Canada and others. Basic quality of life and bodily autonomy will be fundamental human rights one day.

In the meantime, yes, this imperfect community is the only place where I can fit in. It will remain so until the wider world makes an effort to engage in informed dialogue about what to do with people whose quality of life is unbearable despite every possible effort being made to recover. In my case, there's nothing to show for those efforts, as extreme and prolonged as they have been.

For those of us who fall through the cracks, there will always be a desperate need for a place like this.

 

[Saturn_]

First thing to say is that that commenter is (probably unwittingly) the most heinous of hypocrites.

Last year, someone proposed a thread to ask people how they found SaSu. I requested that they include a poll because it would give us data. And sure enough, those polls gave us firm proof that the YouTube video had sent thousands upon thousands (plus likely tens of thousands more who do use the forum without signing up) of young people here.

Many of these are exactly the sort that the commenter is referring to. Young and inexperienced people going through a rough patch or suffering from loneliness. And there is conclusive proof that this Tantacrul scumbag has largely created this problem via the Streisand Effect, then claimed to be a hero who is solving it. Sounds like a dastardly scam to me.

If ever there was a video in the history of mankind that deserves to be demonetised (not to mention the scumbag being sued and/or sent to jail by the families of the young people he will have sent to their deaths so he can have his petty payback for getting banned from the forum) this is it. This has truly been a dark chapter, and the fact that the scumbag got a lot of money out of it is a new level of injustice.

That issue aside, I can confirm I've been directly threatened by mental health professionals not to mention self-harm because they would be required by law to alert the authorities. I also know not to mention it casually to others because it's unlikely that anything constructive would come of it.

Very slowly, certain regions of the globe are opening up to the complex but important debate around assisted suicide, but most parts are still in the dark ages. I'm very confident that this will change as more governments follow the initiative of Canada and others. Basic quality of life and bodily autonomy will be fundamental human rights one day.

In the meantime, yes, this imperfect community is the only place where I can fit in. It will remain so until the wider world makes an effort to engage in informed dialogue about what to do with people whose quality of life is unbearable despite every possible effort being made to recover. In my case, there's nothing to show for those efforts, as extreme and prolonged as they have been.

For those of us who fall through the cracks, there will always be a desperate need for a place like this.

Thank you for such a well thought out, meaningful reply :)

 

[sancta-simplicitas]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, it was a very comforting and validating read.

This made me think of Alexandre Baril, a Canadian professor of social studies who coined the term "suicidism" to describe the oppression and violence that suicidal people often get put through. Among other things he talks about the silencing of us, the refusal to listen to us and the lack of safe spaces where we can freely express ourselves. I also find it absurd that we are often bullied out from other spaces - even those in professional settings - and the one safe space there is for us is getting targeted and demonized by the mass media. Where do they want us to go then? They clearly don't want us to die, so what exactly are we supposed to do according to them?

Alexandre Barils paper. It's a good read.

Suicidism: A new theoretical framework to conceptualize suicide from an anti-oppressive perspective | Disability Studies Quarterly

dsq-sds.org

 

[ijustwishtodie]

"Unmoderated" is perhaps the worst word to use to describe this place. This place has, by far, the best moderation that I've ever seen. The mods here stick to the rules as fair as possible without letting their own feelings interfere with moderation. In other types of social media, the mods there seem to be power hungry and are only moderators to gain power over others and ban those who opposes their world view.

This place isn't even an echo chamber as people here do have very different views but, in the end, even if this place was an echo chamber, it's significantly better than the echo chamber that is society. They call this place an echo chamber but, ironically, society is perhaps the biggest echo chamber there is as one's views must always be positive and suicide has to be censored as much as possible.

In my case, the worst thing that I can fall into is society's echo chamber. I have never wanted to participate in society to begin with and I know that I'm rational for not wanting to slave myself away pointlessly for decades. What harms me specifically is society as they want me to suffer in pain (of course they don't see it as pain but rather just mere hardship and challenges but, because of my autism, participating in society is pain for me)

Only a few people from community can truly understand me. An echo chamber like society is unable to understand me

 

[SilentSadness]

That's an ignorant quote, to call this forum unmoderated is unreasonable because troll posts get locked. Many people here aren't depressed, they're chronically ill or hate living and suffering. It's ironic it's called an "unmoderated echo chamber", because that comment section is a complete echo chamber caused by deletion of unwanted comments. Some people here even criticise the forum and and they are not censored. But anyway you're right that suicidal people don't have much else to comfort them or find advice. Pretty much everywhere is censored with toxic positivity, people just don't want to entertain death at all.

 

[lizzywizzy09]

I actually deeply hate suicide preventers now. Like hate to the point where I wish death upon them. Fucking torturers.

 

[Saturn_]

Sorry for the numerous edits on this by the way. Like I said, wrote this as I was (and still am) very tired and can't fall asleep, and I noticed a few errors with grammar and syntax as I reread it. But hopefully it makes sense now.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'd agree that by it's nature, this place isn't exactly positive. I'd even agree that it is an echo chamber. Kind of the shadow version of Facebook, Instagram, Linkedin. People over there are putting on a front to show how fabulous their lives are. People here are bearing their scares.

As to whether it's bad for our mental health to wallow in mysery- as it were. I doubt it's good. But- like you point out- what is the alternative? Perhaps forcing platitudes and positive thinking on people will have an effect if they are open to that. If they are willing to change. I expect most of us have already tried a form of that at one point. I get the sense that by the time people come here, many are beyond all that. They simply aren't all that open to that stuff anymore. If it worked- we'd be doing it- wouldn't we?!!

Plus, as you rightly point out. To be utterly honest about how we feel can have really damaging consequences. Where else can a person talk about suicide safely without the threat of having their rights taken away from them? Who in their right mind wants to be controlled like that?

I believe that Tantacrul's parents work in the mental healthcare industry so, I imagine that could be another reason for his bias. Whether we like it ir not, I think many of us inherit a lot of ideas from our parents.

The bottomline for me is- some people will outright insist that they don't want help/ treatment/ therapy/ drugs. Should we not be allowed the choice? People with physical sickness can turn down treatment. And furthermore, I guess they'd prefer not to even know people like that exist. They'd prefer us to just die alone.

If it's their children they're worried about (it is.) Then- do something about it! Find out why your children are struggling so much and do something to deal with the cause!

 

[Dusk till dawn]

Of course! How could we let suicidal people be in a place with fellow suicidal people where they can give instructions on how they can end themselves? Instead of we should make suicidal people talk with our mental health shitheads (psychiatrists) about how life is good and how they can turn their life around if they started believing in jesus [insert the most ridiculous pro-life bullshit you can think of]

yeah that's not going to work, in my case i'm not even going to give anyone with pro-life idealogies a chance to talk with me or show him sensitive parts of my life, i consider pro-lifers as useless pieces of shit that i should ignore, i never bothered with therapists for that very reason, i know some SSRIs and useless benzos will not help me, drugs will just be another distraction to me, i examined my life from every angle without emotional influences and came to the conclusion that i'm better off dead for the sake of myself and for the sake of society in general

 

[ForgottenAgain]

I found your post so well written and so true. Society is the biggest echo chamber there is and where you keep being passed on from service to service, person to person, until you inevitably end up having to lie or make light of your situation to avoid incarceration in a psych ward and being medicated against your own will.

The world is filled with toxic positivity and the more time passes the more I can't stand it.

I imagine it was probably aggravating to write what you wrote, get all those thoughts out, think back to how the world works, but it felt good to read it. Like I'm not crazy, they're the ones who are wrong, they're the illogical ones.

Nice one, thanks.

 

[babyharpseal]

i agree w everything u said so much. and why are we labelled an echo chamber but pro-life spaces arent called that when they have so much censorship? if their idea of an echo chamber is "place where everyone agrees on certain things" then literally every group in existence is a fucking echo chamber

they r never going to approach this topic in good faith. just by matter of disagreeing w them, we're inherently crazy, they will never honestly listen to our side of things or consider anything we say. i was thinking abt it recently, and under pro-lifer belief it is literally impossible to want to die and not be crazy. it's a catch 22.
if ur of rational mind, then u can make the decision to die.
but the second u make that choice, ur labelled irrational, bc only an irrational person would want to die.
therefore, ur choice is not valid, and u must be kept alive.

 

[SVEN]

Trapped in a domestic situation caring for dependants, this forum is a sanctuary of safety for me.
Folk get what I'm saying, Moderators keep it a safe place, thank goodness for SanSu.

 

[Throwawayacc3]

It's very similar to "soft language". Unfortunately it's a cancer and it's part of "mainstream".

 

[avalonisburning]

They clearly don't want us to die, so what exactly are we supposed to do according to them?

They want us to imagine Sisyphus happy and STFU until we reach the socially-palatable expiration date. They don't want us to bother them with our feelings but they also don't want to feel guilty when we're gone. Really trying to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

Thank you for making this post, it reveals the pure hypocrisy underlying those loaded statements about echo chambers. What people with those views are advocating for is a positivity echo chamber, even in the face of situations where eternal optimism has failed a person, and thus they're looking for like minded people in similar predicaments to commiserate with.

Not everyone wants to hear a non-stop inspirational pep talk lacking in substance or relatability. Once you get to the point of recognising platitudes as such, they're no longer a useful tool to instill motivation.

I think fundamentally a lot of misguided youtube gurus or mental health workers don't understand the negative impact of repeating mantras or nuggets of advice to people who have heard it dozens of time before, and still find themselves in a bad situation because the so called gold standard sage advice didn't work for their particular problem. Sometimes, that's just how it is, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to talk to others in a similar situation, since many "support spaces" shut you down or lecture you for speaking about your own experiences in life.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that the whole shtick often feels fake, contradictory, and insincere. Idk if you've heard of the infamous Chris Chan or a different guy named Josh Block before, but I feel like these two are prime examples of how the false saviour mindset plays out. It would probably take an entire novel to explain the history of these two, but both are essentially "lower functioning" autistic individuals who have become a public spectacle of mocking entertainment while also being harassed and browbeaten for not fixing themselves and getting their lives together.

I recently learned about Josh Block since he became a sort of internet celebrity, and it really horrified me to see the same people mocking and harassing him posting how he's a miserable, narcissistic (because he has public meltdowns) alcoholic who simply chooses to struggle and not put in the effort to fix his life, and how it's sooo sad he won't get help, or that no one helps him. Then the next day you will see the same people commenting on his videos telling him to drink more and trying to influence him in a negative manner. The double standards are astounding.

This is a man who has been forcefully taken to the hospital numerous times, who is defacto homeless, has no family or friends, drinks until he passes out in public and gets robbed and pickpocketed frequently because of it. Clearly he has issues that cannot be solved by some stern words and motivational speeches by "concerned" internet strangers. These people expect him to somehow overcome a developmental disability that has completely thrown off the trajectory of his life.

It reminded me a lot of how critics of this forum constantly spout the same nonsense over and over about how we're all wallowing in misery and won't seek help, blah blah blah. Sure, discussions here can be difficult to read sometimes or might not be the best for a particular headspace at the time, but most people know when they'd feel better logging off than scrolling. However, a lot of us have sought out help MANY times only to be failed, burned, and let down. There's very few spaces where one can speak honestly about this, it's always shut down immediately, and amplifies those feelings you mentioned about perceiving oneself as diseased or something negative to be locked away.

It isn't this community that's made me worse off in the long run, it's the treatment from these supposedly compassionate and caring people who treat those who suffer like an alien species when it is inconvenient. The out of sight out of mind approach is clearly not working, otherwise we wouldn't need this community. Your post is very validating and I relate to it a lot.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

A psychiatric hospital is the worst thing a depressed person could fall into. Effectively no.moderation there.

 

[Sprite_Geist]

Very well written Saturn_

As for Sanctioned Suicide supposedly being an echo chamber: it is no worse than the echo chambers that suicidal people experience daily - in different real-world environments - where they are constantly told that they are negative, selfish and cowardly, and without any chance of arguing against these beliefs.