Discussion A Society of Hypocrites

[Darkhaven]

DISCLAIMER:
Before kicking this of let me just say that I´m completely against any kind of discrimination and prejudice based on gender, race, sexual orientation, etc.
I don´t condone, in any way, homophobic and/or mysoginist ideas, and let´s just say that when some very close family members of mine drop dead i won´t be shedding a tear as i have no sympathy for simple minded individuals (even if they helped put food on my table in the past).

Having said that and promising that i truly mean it, what´s driving me to rant the way i´m about to do is how our society picks social causes that, comparatively to others, don´t deserve so much hype and social mobilization and adherence as they seem to have. I´m mainly refering to the LGBT right´s, Feminist movement´s and Black Lives Matter movements, among others.
Before i proceed with my point let me say, once again, that i am in any way saying that these causes aren´t legitimate or that they represent non existing problems. All of these movements are important and have a place on our society. I´m all for it.
What revolts me is how they are so buffed up by the social media and press and gather so much support by the a big portion of the masses when we have other social groups or types of people in more vulnerable and precarious living conditions and these don´t receive 1/10 of the attention these pop culture social movements receive.
I´m refering to the various comunities of people with mental ilnesses.
Feminism and gender equality inniatives demand the end of double standards and the supression or reduction of the wage gap between male/female workers; the LGBT movements ask for equality and an end to the social prejudice homosexual, transexual, etc people are submitted to.
But let´s put this in perspective, how hard is it for a mentally healthy/neurotipical woman or LGBT individual to find hers/his place on society by finding a job and getting financial independence or even finding a likeminded group friends when compared to a mentally ill person? I mean, do these people have such a hard time out there that justifies the incredibly disproportionate solidarity and attention they get from most people and social media platforms????
How often do we witness big companies changing their logos on social media in honor of people suffering from mental or developmental disorders? How many popular hastags are there on social media to raise awareness for these problems? How many socialites make political correct speeches on VMA´s or Academy Awards ceremonies regarding the rights of people suffering with mental ilnesses?
It seems that we got our hierarchies mixed up. Life is much tougher for mental ill patients than it is for women or LGBT or black people when taken in general.
Just think of the differences between someone with autism, for example, and a mentally healthy individual that happens to like people from the same sex when it comes to acess to the job market and the likelihood of maintaining a stable and worthy professional carreer to, at least, provide for their essential needs and keep them from ending up in places like this.
The odds of a woman or a homosexual/transexual finding a job and becoming financially independent are much higher than the odds of an individual suffering from mental illnesses achieving the same feat. Thus, in my opinion, having these pop culture and social media backed movements claiming more rights and social acceptance is like me demanding that more french fries are included in each macdonald´s packet next to an hungry and starving kid from Africa. They are overrepresented.
Not to mention that, more often than not, the coworkers of mental health patients, after learning their fragilities and sensibilities, find ways of further isolating and stigmatizing these people in order to make them snap and thus, transfering to them the liability of an eventual firing.
So yeah, we live in a highly hipocritical society, where it´s trendy and most profitable in terms of gaining popularity to support certain causes and because of that we end up forgetting about people who are more desperate and, sometimes, barely clinging onto life in order to fit in and gain popularity, etc.
As i said i´m not bashing on anyone NOR AM I a Pro-Lifer, i just find it very revolting that being inclusive towards an homosexual or an immigrant or refugee is something that is excessively glorified and put on TV screens, while helping or volunteering to help kids with autism or finding ways to protect these people on their workplaces, for example, by making it harder to fire them or protecting them from the malicious webs and traps created by coworkers in order to get rid of them is something that is never discussed and no one gives a fuck about. I HATE THIS WORLD! Fuck### HYPOCRITES!

 

[InTheAirTonight]

It seems that we got our hierarchies mixed up. Life is much tougher for mental ill patients than it is for women or LGBT or black people when taken in general.

Sorry but you sound prejudiced and bitter when you say something like this. You think those groups don't suffer from high rates of mental illness on top of all the other shit they have to put up with?

 

[Darkhaven]

Sorry but you sound prejudiced and bitter when you say something like this. You think those groups don't suffer from high rates of mental illness on top of all the other shit they have to put up with?

Yes they do, but most of their mental ilnesses are, generally, temporary and treatable as in they are caused indirectly by other problems.
All the while someone who has a structural mental health issue like someone with Asperger´s Syndrome or BPD don´t get half of the attention.
No to mention that most gay parades and innitiatives are aimed towards "commercial gays" and tend to forget about some other types of homosexual people who don´t have an exploitative image to the movement. These are, generally, excluded. More hypocrisy.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Rather than minimize other legitimate movements in order to maximize your own issue, why not ask, "When do my issues get equal attention and social validation?"

 

[Blutsager]

Our society just likes to exploit the weak. Those communities were lucky enough to assemble a force strong enough to fight back. The issue with those mentally ill, is that their reason for being discriminated also puts them at a disadvantage to fight back against society, and thus society keeps stomping on them.

 

[Darkhaven]

Rather than minimize other legitimate movements in order to maximize your own issue, why not ask, "When do my issues get equal attention and social validation?"

I think i was sufficiently explicit and peremptory when i said i wasn´t questioning the legitimacy of these movements. Maybe i need to add a fourth disclaimer to my original post.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I think i was sufficiently explicit and peremptory when i said i wasn´t questioning the legitimacy of these movements. Maybe i need to add a fourth disclaimer to my original post.

Yeah, I saw the disclaimers. I also saw comments like:

It seems that we got our hierarchies mixed up. Life is much tougher for mental ill patients than it is for women or LGBT or black people when taken in general.

and

we end up forgetting about people who are more desperate

These are sweeping generalizations that minimize the suffering and challenges of other groups in order to maximize and therefore validate the suffering of those who experience mental illness. For instance, Black Lives Matter is about black people being profiled and shot by police because of the color of their skin. They feel terror every time they're pulled over. Do you feel terror every time you're pulled over because of mental illness? It's apples and oranges. Both conditions are legitimate causes, the condition of skin color, and the condition of mental illness.

Rationally speaking, a preemptive disclaimer doesn't change the meaning of what one says. Example: "I'm not a racist, but..." (I used to live in the Deep South and heard that one a lot. Never was it followed by a non-racist or non-ignorant statement.)

I get that you're fired up and don't disagree with why, but your rhetoric is not persuasive because of the logical fallacies. I'm not being a dick, I just have experience with presenting logical arguments in order to persuade or make a point, and I say with no disrespect that you haven't accomplished it here. That's not a criticism of you, but of the logic.

Edit: They are both legitimate and *equally weighty* causes. Your cause just doesn't yet get the social validation and support that BLM, LGBTQ+ and feminism do.

 

[Darkhaven]

Yeah, I saw the disclaimers. I also saw comments like:

It seems that we got our hierarchies mixed up. Life is much tougher for mental ill patients than it is for women or LGBT or black people when taken in general.

and

we end up forgetting about people who are more desperate

These are sweeping generalizations that minimize the suffering and challenges of other groups in order to maximize and therefore validate the suffering of those who experience mental illness. For instance, Black Lives Matter is about black people being profiled and shot by police because of the color of their skin. They feel terror every time they're pulled over. Do you feel terror every time you're pulled over because of mental illness? It's apples and oranges. Both conditions are legitimate causes, the condition of skin color, and the condition of mental illness.

Rationally speaking, a preemptive disclaimer doesn't change the meaning of what one says. Example: "I'm not a racist, but..." (I used to live in the Deep South and heard that one a lot. Never was it followed by a non-racist or non-ignorant statement.)

I get that you're fired up and don't disagree with why, but your rhetoric is not persuasive because of the logical fallacies. I'm not being a dick, I just have experience with presenting logical arguments in order to persuade or make a point, and I say with no disrespect that you haven't accomplished it here. That's not a criticism of you, but of the logic.

My main point remains untouched though: People don´t care as much about mental illness prejudice as they do about other kinds of prejudice. And the way the press and media platforms cover this issues is partly responsible for that.
You´re probably right about my arguments not being persuasive but that´s also because english is not my main language and, to my dismay, i, sometimes, struggle to express myself and prove my points while talking/speaking in english.
And i really ain´t acting or ranting as a consequence of some sort of personal life event: I study and i never had a job. I have been following the life stories of people with mental illness, specially autism spectrum disorders, and, more or less, they are all convergent on one point: These people get absolutely no support in their adaptation to work and daily life in a community. As i relate a lot to some of these individuals problems and life struggles, i tend to have a sympathetic and protective view of their positionings in the world.
I continue to think i have a valid point.

 

[The Abyss]

There's a severe lack of rights & allowances for struggling demographics.

Autism (funnily enough sub 80 regulars get more support than "high functioning" which is a laugh as we're either invisible or seen as weirdos, you're either savant or tard in most peoples eyes as understanding of neurodiversity is abysmal.), facial ugliness, short men, quiet ppl & a bunch of others that I know exist but I just can't think of right now.

Not taken seriously and are labelled as making excuses or their circumstances being a by-product of their own doing.

Alcoholism & drug abuse which in the majority of cases were self-inflicted coping mechanisms or a hobby taken too far get more support than problems you had no control over or were the consequences of being mistreated by others at some time or another.

At the end of the day physical issues are taken far more seriously than mental ones as the former can be seen immediately so there's no mistaking it exists, we live in a world with such dumb fucking ppl that unless they can analyse it with their eyes it can't possibly be true; if they've not gone through it how can they hope to know the despair of another that actually is?

You can imagine the burden of having no use of your legs but how does a happy person put themselves into the mind of someone so at their wits end they're planning on jumping in front of the next train.

When wheelchair users & downs syndrome sufferers have a higher employment & lower suicide rate than the "High functioning" asd demographic then something is seriously fucking wrong & this group is being severely let down. The health of the body is irrelevant when the mind is poisoned.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

My main point remains untouched though: People don´t care as much about mental illness prejudice as they do about other kinds of prejudice. And the way the press and media platforms cover this issues is partly responsible for that.
You´re probably right about my arguments not being persuasive but that´s also because english is not my main language and, to my dismay, i, sometimes, struggle to express myself and prove my points while talking/speaking in english.
And i really ain´t acting or ranting as a consequence of some sort of personal life event: I study and i never had a job. I have been following the life stories of people with mental illness, specially autism spectrum disorders, and, more or less, they are all convergent on one point: These people get absolutely no support in their adaptation to work and daily life in a community.
I continue to think i have a valid point.

I agree that your main point is valid, and I agree with this comment.

 

[The Abyss]

My main point remains untouched though: People don´t care as much about mental illness prejudice as they do about other kinds of prejudice. And the way the press and media platforms cover this issues is partly responsible for that.
You´re probably right about my arguments not being persuasive but that´s also because english is not my main language and, to my dismay, i, sometimes, struggle to express myself and prove my points while talking/speaking in english.
And i really ain´t acting or ranting as a consequence of some sort of personal life event: I study and i never had a job. I have been following the life stories of people with mental illness, specially autism spectrum disorders, and, more or less, they are all convergent on one point: These people get absolutely no support in their adaptation to work and daily life in a community. As i relate a lot to some of these individuals problems and life struggles, i tend to have a sympathetic and protective view of their positionings in the world.
I continue to think i have a valid point.

Those that get a diagnosis in childhood are left to get on with it when they're an adult having to rely on family members pretty much while those that slipped through the net & get a diagnosis after 18 don't get jackshit, it's like society thinks these ppl suddenly grow out of their autism like it was a temporary illness when your brains neural pathways are completely different to that of the majority. You are expected to be a round peg for a hole when you are a square.

I read stories about affluent NT parents of those with Asperger's that had to create their own company just, so they could hire their own kid as no one else would give them a job.

 

[Apathy79]

I have a warped view of the world, but for what it's worth, this is my 2c:

Playing who is the biggest victim group of society is an endless spiral into almost entirely negative territory. Being the victim, or when you can't be victim becoming a martyr for other victim groups, is all the rage right now - probably half of all Twitter posts worldwide are dedicated to it. The reason is not just because it's profitable either. That feeling of righteous indignation, while ultimately extremely destructive, is addictive, like a sugar high, and this is the best way to permanently ingrain it. But when everyone does it, everyone has to be the victim, which requires others to be seen as evil perpetrators, and that starts a downward spiral of negativity that pointlessly pits people against each other. It's already reached a point now where anyone already stuck in that spiral is trying to spin everything in society to fit their narrative, which results in groups pitted against each other based almost entirely on firmly believed and emotionalised mass delusions. Ultimately everyone loses.

I think it's best to avoid the whole paradigm. Everyone is looking for a little love, understanding and compassion. Individually we can do our best to provide that and lead by example, whatever this person's unique advantages and disadvantages may be. That's ultimately going to have a bigger effect on potential societal change than complaining about how unfair it is, and especially than trying to push why I'm a bigger victim than you. And even as a group, I think better measures are ultimately instituted out of love, compassion and understanding, than pity, coercion and blame avoidance, and any education we can provide about our own or others situations need to appeal to those former traits, and avoid the latter.

But that view is very unusual today so feel free to take it with a grain of salt.

 

[InTheAirTonight]

But that view is very unusual today so feel free to take it with a grain of salt.

Not an unusual view but I will take it with several grains of SN, eventually

 

[bpdandme]

DISCLAIMER:
Before kicking this of let me just say that I´m completely against any kind of discrimination and prejudice based on gender, race, sexual orientation, etc.
I don´t condone, in any way, homophobic and/or mysoginist ideas, and let´s just say that when some very close family members of mine drop dead i won´t be shedding a tear as i have no sympathy for simple minded individuals (even if they helped put food on my table in the past).

Having said that and promising that i truly mean it, what´s driving me to rant the way i´m about to do is how our society picks social causes that, comparatively to others, don´t deserve so much hype and social mobilization and adherence as they seem to have. I´m mainly refering to the LGBT right´s, Feminist movement´s and Black Lives Matter movements, among others.
Before i proceed with my point let me say, once again, that i am in any way saying that these causes aren´t legitimate or that they represent non existing problems. All of these movements are important and have a place on our society. I´m all for it.
What revolts me is how they are so buffed up by the social media and press and gather so much support by the a big portion of the masses when we have other social groups or types of people in more vulnerable and precarious living conditions and these don´t receive 1/10 of the attention these pop culture social movements receive.
I´m refering to the various comunities of people with mental ilnesses.
Feminism and gender equality inniatives demand the end of double standards and the supression or reduction of the wage gap between male/female workers; the LGBT movements ask for equality and an end to the social prejudice homosexual, transexual, etc people are submitted to.
But let´s put this in perspective, how hard is it for a mentally healthy/neurotipical woman or LGBT individual to find hers/his place on society by finding a job and getting financial independence or even finding a likeminded group friends when compared to a mentally ill person? I mean, do these people have such a hard time out there that justifies the incredibly disproportionate solidarity and attention they get from most people and social media platforms????
How often do we witness big companies changing their logos on social media in honor of people suffering from mental or developmental disorders? How many popular hastags are there on social media to raise awareness for these problems? How many socialites make political correct speeches on VMA´s or Academy Awards ceremonies regarding the rights of people suffering with mental ilnesses?
It seems that we got our hierarchies mixed up. Life is much tougher for mental ill patients than it is for women or LGBT or black people when taken in general.
Just think of the differences between someone with autism, for example, and a mentally healthy individual that happens to like people from the same sex when it comes to acess to the job market and the likelihood of maintaining a stable and worthy professional carreer to, at least, provide for their essential needs and keep them from ending up in places like this.
The odds of a woman or a homosexual/transexual finding a job and becoming financially independent are much higher than the odds of an individual suffering from mental illnesses achieving the same feat. Thus, in my opinion, having these pop culture and social media backed movements claiming more rights and social acceptance is like me demanding that more french fries are included in each macdonald´s packet next to an hungry and starving kid from Africa. They are overrepresented.
Not to mention that, more often than not, the coworkers of mental health patients, after learning their fragilities and sensibilities, find ways of further isolating and stigmatizing these people in order to make them snap and thus, transfering to them the liability of an eventual firing.
So yeah, we live in a highly hipocritical society, where it´s trendy and most profitable in terms of gaining popularity to support certain causes and because of that we end up forgetting about people who are more desperate and, sometimes, barely clinging onto life in order to fit in and gain popularity, etc.
As i said i´m not bashing on anyone NOR AM I a Pro-Lifer, i just find it very revolting that being inclusive towards an homosexual or an immigrant or refugee is something that is excessively glorified and put on TV screens, while helping or volunteering to help kids with autism or finding ways to protect these people on their workplaces, for example, by making it harder to fire them or protecting them from the malicious webs and traps created by coworkers in order to get rid of them is something that is never discussed and no one gives a fuck about. I HATE THIS WORLD! Fuck### HYPOCRITES!

I support all of these movements while also agreeing that mental health needs higher representation, understanding and support. I don't think we should be using one movement to bring down the other. It is very true we live in a hypocritical society which claims we are "progressive" when we are truly not. Minority groups are usually at higher risk of suicide and we should all work together to overcome this.

I really disagree with the statement: "Life is much tougher for mental ill patients than it is for women or LGBT or black people when taken in general."

That's simply not true, the amount of internalised racism and overt racism that is accepted is disgusting. My friend uses a different name when applying to job to a name that is more "white" so they are more likely to get an interview. Please watch when they see us, Fruitvale station, just mercy, Detroit, roots, etc.
If your life has never had to be made harder due to your skin colour then I don't think you can speak on this. Many of my friends are gay and the amount of times we have walked in the streets and people shout slurs at them which they are just used to at this point. People try to commit suicide because they are ashamed of their sexuality. As a woman, my suicide attempts weren't taken seriously and described as "hormonal" or "attention seeking". I didn't get mental health support as my male doctor doesn't believe in personality disorders in woman and I was told I had a "good body and attractive face" so I have nothing to be depressed about so I currently receive no support.

Please watch this:


I agree we have a long way to go with mental health, but we still have a long way to go with racial equality, gender equality and LGBT rights. We shouldn't be pitting these groups against each other! That doesn't progress anywhere. We need to make an accountable, equal and fair society and that doesn't mean these groups fighting against each other as every group deserves equality.

 

[gnomeboy17]

I do kind of see where you're coming from... But you do realise that LGBT (particularly trans) people are far more likely to suffer from mental illness than others, so I'm not sure what you're point is because a lot of the time LGBT people can't have normal lives, because they too, suffer with mental illness. I do certainly agree more should be done for the mentally ill, but that doesn't mean it should be a competition between LGBT and mentally ill, because it's more like a Venn diagram where many fall into both catorgories

 

[terry_a_davis]

paragraphs, that hurt my head i failed at reading it i think i'm stupid.

 

[RayoSinSol]

It's not an "either/or" situation. There can be movements for LGBT people, people of color, women, AND people with mental divergences. In fact, I'd say a society that has a healthy amount of movements for those other vulnerable groups is more likely to have movements for people with mental divergences. IN FACT, it's possible for a person to be gay, black, a woman, AND have mental health issues or divergences, so all of those movements would matter to such a person just as much as one another. It's called Intersectionality theory, and, just like the "theory" of Relativity, it's more than just academic theory; it's millions of peoples' everyday real lives.

That said, I agree that there really aren't a lot of massive movements to help people with mental health issues actually find sustainable work or live complete lives. Despite the newest, bluest "self-care" movements, a scant few disability protections for certain mental illnesses, and the advances the psychiatry and psychotherapy fields have made since the era of lobotomies and gay conversion brainwashing...millions of people are still under-treated within the mental health field and/or still pretty much completely on their own outside of it.

On paper, employers shouldn't discriminate against hiring a non-neurotypical person, but...come on let's be real here, lol. I don't tell employers I have mental health problems anymore because the average person who hasn't ever needed to research the nuances of psychology for themselves or someone else they care about either just hears "I'm slow" or "I'm crazy."

There's so much stigma, that people with mental "illnesses" or neurodivergence generally still stick to the shadows. It's intimidating to try to start a movement to be taken seriously and be given rights as a group, in a society that doesn't even take you seriously in ordinary life. But that's the struggle of trying to gain civil rights.

It has taken women and LGBT people literally all of human history to gain any rights at all in certain parts of the world. It has taken the African Diaspora half a millennium to regain rights after having them stolen in order to be shoved into someone else's machine.

Even today, though things might look hunky dory to you as the result of survivorship bias, plenty of people are still very much still fighting on a daily basis to just be seen as equal, human, and worthy of respect and not let society backslide into taking their rights away again. (Side Note: just because companies change their logos to rainbow colors doesn't mean shit. It's just a marketing strategy. By and large, people at the top of corporate pyramids couldn't give half a shit about gay people and are more politically liable to strip them of all their rights in a second rather than fight for them, if it meant getting some extra tax cuts.)

The fact that we even have psychological labels and terminology to unite around, in order to support each other and gain rights, is a very new development in history when you think about it. So, it's natural that these labels haven't accumulated very much political sway yet, especially when they're designed to isolate and pathologize people, not unite them in a common struggle.

But that's what it is: a common human struggle to be truly seen and understood and able to live a full life within the confines of our societies. Respect the struggles of other people on the margins because our struggles are intertwined.

Maybe check out Mad in America's website. Look up the Autism rights movement and similar movements and try to find mobilizations near you, if you feel strongly that you want to put yourself out there to make a change. No one else is going to do it for you, because (tough love moment. Brace yourself.) it's not this trash world's prerogative to give a shit unless you fight for shit.

I support you on your journey to make life better for yourself and people like you. Make the world better for us "crazies," I'd really appreciate it. Long-term, it'd probably benefit a lot of "neurotypicals" too if our language about the mind weren't as rigid and isolating as it is today.

Do whatever you need to do, but tearing down other peoples' liberation movements isn't going to change anything. Doing so IS the definition of hypocrisy, and it just makes things worse for everyone.

 

[toomuchtimetodie]

Unfortunately very true.
The people who claim to be discriminated against over ethnicity or sexuality now tend to be the sort that when they are with a group of other whining maggots they're the first to try to make others uncomfortable. Closet bullies alot are that people don't mention.

If Im not conveying my point well...

A group of gay people who are on a night out who make a straight person feel uncomfortable/intimated are just as bad as the scumbag gay bashers.